02:51
product management
Responding to a question about disagreements with Marty Cagan's comments on Lenny's Podcast, Dan Olsen argues that while Cagan's aspirational best-practice advice is valid, an individual PM (unlike a CPO) has limited real power to change an entrenched non-product-oriented organization, and Cagan's actual position already accounts for this by saying you should try and, if you can't, consider leaving.
Olsen frames his own book (The Playbook) and Cagan's books (Inspired, Empowered, Transformed) as complementary: Cagan's work is about principles and philosophy, Olsen's is a how-to guide.
Some listeners react to Cagan's descriptions of how product teams and orgs should work as a 'pipe dream,' saying it feels unattainable compared to the 'feature factory' they experience.
Olsen explains this reaction as the natural result of Cagan espousing best practices and ideals, where the gap between the ideal and someone's lived job experience can be so large it discourages people and makes them question whether it's achievable.
Olsen recommends viewers watch the Lenny's Podcast episode with Cagan and notes more discussion of these themes is coming with the release of Transformed.
Olsen describes himself as a realist and pragmatist, citing his hands-on experience as an interim VP of product for many companies and his practice of meeting companies 'where they're at.'
On a related question about being in a non-product-oriented company, Olsen says at some point you may need to go to a different company, while clarifying he isn't saying you shouldn't first fight the good fight.
Olsen recounts his own past as a consultant/PM fighting to get dev teams to work the right way and stakeholders to understand, describing it as something that 'can be a lot to rest on your shoulders.'
Olsen identifies the main critique of Cagan's advice: Cagan recommends trying to change/convert a non-ideal organization, but a CPO has much more ability to influence and change an org than a PM, APM, or senior PM does.
Olsen argues that for a PM at a bigger company, realistically changing the whole organization's course is like 'steering the Titanic' and is impractical.
Olsen grants there may be 'a little bit of legitimacy' to this critique, but says that if you talk to Cagan directly, his actual position is: try, and if you can't, maybe you need to go somewhere else — a position Olsen says he agrees with, adding 'Life's too short' to stay somewhere you can't practice your craft properly.
Olsen reframes the 'pipe dream' objection to Cagan not as a factual disagreement about best practices, but as an emotional/discouragement effect caused by the size of the gap between an aspirational ideal and a listener's daily reality.
Olsen's critique implicitly calibrates organizational-change advice by role: what's actionable for a CPO ('change the org') is not equally actionable for a PM, APM, or senior PM, which he analogizes to trying to steer the Titanic.
Olsen suggests that the common critique of Cagan may stem from an incomplete read of his position — Olsen claims that speaking to Cagan directly reveals he already qualifies his 'try to change it' advice with 'and if you can't, go somewhere else,' meaning the critique and Cagan's actual stance may already be aligned.
Olsen supports his stance with first-hand authority: he says he has personally been 'in the trenches' as a PM/consultant fighting to change dev-team and stakeholder behavior, making his acknowledgment of the toll ('a lot to rest on your shoulders') an experience-based claim rather than a hypothetical one.
«sometimes people view what Marty says is like oh my gosh that is a pipe dream»
— 00:29
«I'm a realist like I've worked Hands-On»
— 01:19
«it can be a lot to rest on your shoulders»
— 01:57
«steer just kind of like steering the Titanic»
— 02:25
«he's just saying hey you should try and if you can't then you know maybe you need to go somewhere else and I agree with that too»
— 02:38
«Life's Too Short um to just be in a a place where you can't practice your craft the way you know it should be»
— 02:44
Reception
Viewers found the video's take on PM/dev team dynamics relatable and validating, with genuine curiosity for more detail on the presenter's real-world experiences.
Olsen's quick take partially concedes a real structural critique of Cagan's advice (that influence to change an org scales with seniority) while ultimately defending Cagan's position as already nuanced enough to account for it — try first, and leave if it proves impossible.
02:51